Exploring web3 work with Aleksi Loytynoja from Kleoverse

Hey, this is your host EJ Lawless host of HR tech. Go to market. In this podcast episode, we'll be going deep into web three. Speaking with a founder of a new company called Cleo verse. Cleo verse is a way to surface work within web three, to connect decentralized autonomous organizations and workers so that workers can do work and make money and Dow's can get work done.

The founder that we're going to speak with Alexa has a background in venture capital. As well as growth marketing, it is a recently launched startup in Cleo covers and really delves into some interesting topics of what are Dows. How do workers connect with Dallas? And then how can the blockchain and wallets be used to build a new type of profile and identity around people's work?

That is not tied to their education or background, but what do they have verifiably done? I think it's an incredibly interesting episode where we can look into where work is going and what work looks like currently in the web three world, a brief interview, or sorry, a brief overview.

Definitely. Thanks for having me excited to be here today.

So my name is Aloxi I'm actually from Freeland and entrepreneur building a company called clovers. So we're trying to build a platform of work in web three and a long-term relation would be to revolutionize how talent this signal that is covered on the web. I guess that's the. Brief blurb. Um, my previous background is in VC.

I used to do you're being serious and serious, be for a couple of years and then build those. So some grassroots levels stood up ecosystem here locally in Helsing, different London that I know here excited to be of course, building in the most emergent space that you call it in for a while.

Great. Can you go into a little more detail about the broader problem?

You're trying to say.

Yeah, for sure. So, um, I mean, for me personally, in the, um, in the previous job, cause I was doing and obviously in, uh, otherwise to, uh, the way we. Measure talent. I mean, if you're asked, um, what can you do? Where are you do that to you probably start listing that, Hey, you have this kind of education, a university logo in your CV, and you have these many years of experience in certain space.

And then. I know the answer with this kind of status, enforcing ways to show where you've been doing certain things, but not what you've been doing, or especially what other results that you've delivered at which kind of person you are. That's the main problem that was kind of bordering me and they, the previous job on that.

Now, of course, there are a lot of new technologies in managing and most important live look JSN. And what pre. I'm just extremely excited about the new ways that, um, those technologies enable obviously many fields, but also in the future of work and how we could, could we. Really changed that how we are enforcing our state of seen, instead of telling about their skills, send results.

When people ask about our professional identity or professional, uh, portfolio, and then that's the kind of broad space that we are here tackling, and then definitely would like to be contributing into better solutions to really, regardless of who you are or who you know, or where you've been just based in your results to show that you are.

Got it. So can you help me understand how web three ties into better showcasing talent and better time to what people have actually performed and done?

Um, that's a, that's a great question. So, um, of course the three or four blockchain says that's the underlying technology there. Um, The main thing that they do, right?

They are building a verifiable chain of factions on the net. That's open for everybody. Um, each are modifiable. You can, I mean, nobody got just older eight and that's why it's trustless. You don't have to trust anyone. It just has to be true because that's the way it's coded on that. If we can leverage this kind of objectively trust, less Jane or.

I have proof. I have proof of anything. Of course, if we can leverage that in the context of status, in the context of skills and future work that could enable us unlock class and multiple opportunities. And then that's basically what we're also trying to solve here at clearers. I mean, what, what we'd like to do would like to help you to build your professional.

Profile off objectively verify talent. This would say then. And what it means to me is that based on the actions that we can identify from your public wallets, uh, we can map out them with, uh, project. So work that you've done in the real word and help you show that these are the results that they've delivered.

That's the, that's the main.

Got it. So if I think about that, if I have a platform like Fiverr or Upwork, those are review based systems. So someone says someone else did words, but it's not verifiable with blockchain. The work is actual verifiable. Is that correct?

That's correct? That's correct. Yeah. Send 'em and I mean, Upwork or Fiverr, um, those are great systems.

And obviously when you keep the critical mass, uh, peer reviews become also useful and then it's hard. I mean hard to really alter or modify or cheat with a big enough peer review system and especially with lower quantities, it's modifiable and it's of course, uh, altered to, I mean, subject to possible, um, possible attacks.

If, if someone would just like to scam the system, if you feel like, and that's not possible in blockchain at all. And obviously with blockchain dossier transfers value, and then I guess value can be measured. Quite good proxy about what you do or how great results, how you're delivering, how valuable your work, or, um, and I guess that's kind of the most honest and then direct way of measuring your skills in a sense.

Um, of course we all know that in, for example, in Fiverr or Uber or Airbnb, People tend to give you always five stars because everybody knows that. I mean, if there is no specific complaints to be mad because people know that it's good to have it done, it's important for the other party, et cetera, et cetera.

And, but they don't pay you too much, at least outrageously too much because it's real money. And that's what I, I think it's, it's very good to be a good source of, um,

Got it. That makes sense. So this really works on the astroturfing problem where people are posting fake reviews or on sort of a spar signal program, a problem where there's not a lot of data, right.

How do we take that and the vision to your next step? How are you taking that into the market currently?

Yes. So, um, we are in the very early stages of this. We actually made the first beads of launch on a couple of days ago. And the first version of folk platform, you see scold, claimers discovery, and the idea I used to gather it together, um, all for like Taoists and they're open working opportunities.

Any ways that you S uh, give a Loper or the professional who are really thinking about whether I should jump into web. You didn't really know which would be the best project or how you could make enough money or way to go. We could help you define the first projects that then dig deeper into certain protocols that you feel the most aligned with.

And, and then obviously one day hopefully become a core contributor. And then that's what we would like to enable with that with declare versus cover. I know obviously that in the longterm building on top of that, Buying a fiver Upwork type of a working pro program, but four with three billing on top of that cleavers profiles, that would be then your objective, uh, professional identity on what three, helping you to quantify not only the projects you've done by actually overs a lot of dolls.

So a lot of the work that's your debt. You've gone. Then you have three that can be the trace from your public wallets and buy enough thinking about. That can be a LinkedIn, uh, on what three, if you like. So building together, starting from five or adding LinkedIn and LinkedIn, and then building a strong flywheel around those.

That's the main idea of our platform that we're building at the moment.

Uh, so you were building an on-ramp for people who want to get involved in web three to find work.

Yes, that's a, that's a good way to put it, I guess, for us. I mean, there are great protocols also that if you are the person that doesn't really, I mean, it's interested in the space, but doesn't really know how to code or want to take the exactly.

First step softwares. For example, rabbit hole quest boot for example, are building great programs to really teach you the first various steps. For us, it's people that have done some reshoots. They do know the basics, but they don't know how to really get involved. Right. I mean, it's, uh, it seems Dao, decentralized autonomous organizations.

They are more fluid than typical organizations. It's made me more. It may be more difficult to find your right spot, to find a place to really. Dig deep to really find the way to contribute a lot, and then to understand where you fit as an individual in the organization. And we want to help you to, uh, help you as you go down with that probably told and really start building your, your own career in web three in the point that kind of.

Initial skills had maybe already, already gathered. Of course in the future. I do believe that there is still a lot of opportunity to bring in more and more people, uh, went through ecosystem, but that's now in the, in the first, first phase.

Okay. That's helpful. And so you did just quickly define Dows as decentralized autonomous organizations.

As I understand it, there are new type of emerging entity. That could have a treasury. They have some amount of money that they can spend. They have a voting structure and governance structure, and they typically have some type of organizing mission, either investing or social like Sutent Joe launch kleem averse that is going to help with greening the world.

Or potentially some other organizing aspect. Is that correct? How do you think about it? How would you define these emerging organizations?

So it's like a good definition in data. And I think the most important, um, I mean, when you think about Dallas and how they may be different strategies and organizations or companies, I think that biggest thing is that Dallas are typically completely flat and.

Whole organization and its governance is organized, uh, around code. There is some kind of smart contract that is typically defined by the mission of the organization. As you mentioned, that smart contract really defines the rules of the organizations. Typically the community can with some kind of folding them to alter, to make decisions and to steer the ship if you like, but.

But definitely there is no CEO. There is no board of directors. There is nothing like that, but all the people who hold the governance still good. I know our members of the organization are equally available, equally able to, um, affect the mission, affect the direction of the organization up of course, participate.

I guess that's the, that's the main thing, but basically Dallas are transparent, fully public and democratic organizations. At least seems that nowadays emerging in every field, in quite rapid pace, actually.

Great. So as you're taking the first part of your product, which is the Dows and the people who want to get involved and do this work, where are you focusing?

So this is obviously a traditional marketplace problem. What part of the marketplace are you starting?

Yeah. So, so the traditional chicken egg problem that's, uh, and that's of course a tough Dr. Crack. Um, we want to kind of crack the first problem so that, uh, we kind of tried to bootstrap the Dow, uh, space in a sense that, uh, We think the dolphin for Dallas is geared.

We offer their maps for free. Um, we didn't ask basically anything of them, we help them or even make, make, make ready of their profiles. Of course then ask for permission to, uh, add them. And then of course, everybody has an opportunity to change their information. That's for sure. Um, luckily no one has yet to do that.

And then I hope that that will continue in the future, but, uh, even that. The strong initial supply post, she feel like, then we want to bring the whole full focus on the demand side, really how to build the user base, what would be the most efficient and effective use reputation methods so that we can build some momentum around the individuals that could then come to the platform.

Okay. And so since these dowels are new, who are you selling it? Or who are you connecting and organizing with?

That's incredibly, incredibly good question. I mean, given that, uh, especially in a pure Dao model, if you like, they're typically. Uh, employees as such, obviously are many Dallas are breading. Also it's some kind of hybrid model, or there are athletes specific core contributors that are a bit more involved at Winslet, some others, uh, and those are typically the targets, but, uh, the space is so emerging and, um, most organizations are so young that I didn't know if I can give a general answer to anyone who's listening this, but typically the way I see.

Community leaders or community managers or some organizations have some kind of dev developer relation person developers, uh, they'll show the most, most interesting. And obviously those are the ones who are typically thinking about how. Make sure that the community is tribes. There are continuous supply of new contributors, uh, kind of doubled to final level.

And obviously then they can build more and more contributors bringing them also into core contributor level. Uh, and those are typically exciting. Good prospects to talk to. Um, but then definitely with smaller organizations, uh, there are some Genesee squad or founder. So someone who Glen, and those that have started the movement, then that, then those are also good prospects that see.

Okay. So there's typically either a small core group of people or someone that is designated. Or has taken on the responsibility of connecting with developers and building that community. And those people are usually good context.

Okay. That's great. And what type of work are the Dows typically looking for? And so then what type of work could people find on Cleo verse?

Um, well, that's obviously a great question. Well, there are quite a few types of different, it depends a bit on which kind of Dow are we talking about this. Providing some services, building a product and building a media outlet, um, investment vehicles, et cetera.

But definitely I guess everybody nowadays is trying to build some kind of software on enough. Of course. So the blockchain organizations are also, um, quite closely in contact with software. Let's put it in that way. So typically of course, kind of software projects are, are exciting. The way I see there are kind of three types of, of software projects.

So clearly, uh, some kind of early, early stage, early level, all of the projects that are made to find new, going to Buddhists and bring them farther down in the contributed funnel. Then there are some kind of proof of concepts, um, that are just experimenting the new, new directions that you can go into.

And then there. Some kind of, non-core employed in projects that are outside of the core mission, so that it's easy to outsource those, those projects. Um, but then on top of, uh, involvement, there are definitely something else, a lot of content creation, for example, some marketing holidays, et cetera. So a no show also quite typical.

Okay. So there's development projects and at least some type of marketing projects,

how does.

Okay. What does payment look like? So if I want to contribute to the marketing side, how do I typically get paid? How much could I expect to make? What does that look like?

Um, well, that's it, um, I didn't know if there is the gray generalized that theater out because the space is very merging, but, uh, uh, but definitely the main principle is that the.

Everybody pays with tokens, tried to, uh, don't be expecting or so I guess that's the, that's the first principle and, um, for do on most, most dads pay off to would their own governance still against. So, uh, that's quite typical. Um, typically they are at least the, it in some exchanges or. After Tom, some have some kind of CF nomination.

So you can then compare in, in terms of also how much money are you giving, uh, getting, uh, some Dallas pales, so it stable clients. Um, so I guess there are, um, both, both bikes are, uh, are being applied. Um, then typically of course, it's important to have your own wallet, um, depending on whether you want to build.

Public interface of your own portfolio, or then if you want to keep that kind of work a bit more private, of course, that's a consideration for us, the new mean child, which kind of pull that through. You want to, payment's going to, and then how do you want to interact? Definitely. Um, being directly in touch with Dow Sen and their treasury, you signed that.

What was your own wallet? Yes, that's the, that's the way to go.

So I would do some type of. And I would find that work on clovers and then I would get paid either in the governance token of the doubt or in some type of stable coin that would go into my wallet. And then if I wanted to convert to Fiat, I would do that through the normal process.

Is that correct?

Okay. How are you currently finding workers? And do you refer to them workers? How do you refer to the people who want to do work and then how are you finding them?

Um, well currently we are obviously very early stages and defining the strategies, but there are a couple of the most important ways that, that how we do it.

Um, I think that, uh, content marketing is super important for us building our Twitter, putting our blog and SEO on top of that. Those are employed channels. Um, Twitter tends to be the most important social media for, for crypto space. That's how I feel like I'm definitely, that's an important acquisition in general for us, but also SEO wise, most keywords just steal the company divide thing.

And of course we want to be there then tapping on that opportunity. Um, on top of, uh, content marketing, we want to. Build a lot of fly reality. Um, especially when we are able to wash the profile section. I think that, uh, there should be an opportunity to build a lot of viral content, a treaded dog completer.

And if the show rooms in multiple social media, and of course we want to be very good at that. And then some referral programs, et cetera. So that. That is the basic tools of building a consumer platform, uh, with various channels. And then of course, still a lot of experimentation trying to figure out what works the best that where's the best ROI and then investing in that.

Definitely.

Okay. So what I hear is content marketing as a leading part of that, and that's going to be Twitter to raise awareness and attract people, plus an emerging and growing SEO program. As interest in this space grows. Right now it's a great time to get in. Cause it's not that competitive, but you would sort of own that.

And as people start searching for how to get involved, they would find you and find a good on-ramp. They're just discord play upon. At all when your outreach,

um, is, is important. Of course. And that, I mean, uh, I guess that's going to be thought of, uh, being active in other least coach servers and building our own server on definitely we are participating in some other servers being trained to be active member in those.

And of course also find, uh, find members from there. Um, then now we'll insert. We will do that. We don't have it yet. So if you're looking for it, you won't find it yet, but definitely we feel that in the long, and that will be a core component of our own community. And of course, we want to make that as an assistant to.

Started working with gliomas as necessity. And of course in the longer term will be a more decent decentralized organizational. So discord will be a core by yourself of governing or not our own community. And then of course engaging our own community in many ways.

Okay. What I've noticed is this field, because it's still so emerging and people are looking for information.

The influencer opportunity that people who have established themselves seems like an interesting one from a marketing perspective. There's obviously people who have attracted a large Twitter following who people are listened to. How have you thought about that aspect? We're trying to work within floors.

You're definitely corrected there. And, uh, and definitely, uh, when the cryptos for you, there are many people with great Twitter following SANDAG. And definitely I see that this. Interesting opportunity. Maybe a long-term opportunity on top of Twitter could be channels like Tik TOK, which can be credibly wire, all that with some right influencers in there taking a lot of interesting opportunities.

Um, we haven't yet, um, work with any influencers that match. I mean, we're operating with a small team and that. No on the existing budget really, but, um, but definitely in the longterm, that's, uh, that's very, very exciting opportunity. And then then long thing does, for example, the fund, maybe when we'll raise funding at some point, of course, uh, a thing to consider would be if those.

Find the source of Egypt partners would have, which kind of audiences they have. I know they having maybe their own media or some kind of outlets that they will help, help us to build, build awareness, build their own audiences. And all those things are, I guess, increasingly important nowadays, especially in the crypto sphere, but, but definitely if lunches could play a, an important role in the future, I agree with you.

Got it. Going back to a question. I think I probably should have asked earlier, how are you planning on making money? As a company, but actually are you a company? Are you a Dao? How are you planning on making?

Yeah, that's a, those are great questions you get allowed to, uh, today's world. When you first start asking if you are a company and if you are trying to make money, uh, that definitely.

We are actually a company nowadays system. I do define ourselves as with two boards, five, meaning that we are targeting web for you. We are operating within the web three, but we are organized traditional a traditional company, at least at the moment. Probably in the longterm, we are at least seriously considering about, uh, launching our own token and going into that direction.

But I do believe that's a longer term focus now in the beginning, we just need to nail down the. Just as fast as possible. And I think that's easier when you are big, more centralized. Uh, how do we make money at the moment? Of course, it's still ham non-revenue business. Uh, we are just trying to gather the user base and I guess that's will be the core, uh, commercial plan or target for us for awhile.

Um, But definitely when there is enough user base in Africa, community engagement, there is a lot of opportunities also to monetize that, um, we can, uh, having the discovery side, some kind of proprietary, uh, volunteers, projects, et cetera. Uh, in the pleasure profile side of the platform, we can have specific tools that help you identify search, discover profiles, um, kind of those tools that are, you know, the platform shows.

So, uh, can be very valuable for the organizations. And even though the data will be free, of course, leveraging that deficient labor, all that could be monetized. So, so those plans, and of course all the things that we could. Um, plan around our own possible token kind of, um, because those mentioned thus far, those are very rare.

Two business models. Can we then figure out those some basis model that would be even more suitable for what three contexts? That that's an incredibly exciting opportunity and out of course, just nothing concrete on that side yet, but definitely from when we'll have our own token, that those opportunities.

It's great. Going very high level. Let's say that you all are very successful three to five years from now. How do you think attribution to work and profiles will differ from today? What will be better if you all are successful for people who are doing work?

Um, well, there are so, so many things that I think could change and then I hope that would change.

But first of all, I do think that, uh, there's a lot more freedom in the work. I mean, in the world of work, in a sense that, uh, beforehand. As an individual, you formed your life around work, right? You moved where the work was and you went into the office when you need to go there. And that work was the sender and everything else kind of front around that.

Then I do believe that that many trends and forces are flipping that around. But crypto for three, uh, Taoists are among deleting four CS to. Increase individual freedom in the work life. And I hope we clear where this will be a key contributor in that future where you. Going to be only the dose projects that you would feel very, very passionate about.

You can find the work that suits you the best with the terms that you like and, uh, and really flipping it in a way that you do your work in terms of your life and not the other way around. Um, the other opportunity that I am extremely excited about is, uh, increasing equality. Kind of getting rid of all the unnecessary biases that are still affecting our work life quite a lot.

Um, what I mean by that they stopped, I guess it's, uh, quite proven that all of us have some kind of ongoing biases that affect our making every time. And it's spite of the fact live. For example, there is less women in the leading positions in many, many companies or many. Um, what I do believe that clear words and outs in general could enable ECS to bring more and more anatomy.

I don't know. You may be in the, in the world of work and really, I mean, make it redundant who you are, what's your name or what's your picture, but just focus on the results and as a result, I mean, they were, it doesn't matter which kind of biases you are, because if you are looking only at the results, that's kind of the most honest.

Um, matrix that there is, and then you believe that that will drive a lot of equality. I mean, gender wise, but also in other many other ways that there are biases in today's today's world. And definitely, I do believe that, uh, crypto DAS, as a whole like lowers this platform will also help many people who are not able to have such an opportunities.

For example, in terms of education, Um, Austin, the Western world have I made in Finland? I do have a for university, the education. I know that you in the U S have great universities. You need to pay for it. But in many parts of the failed people have absolutely no access in university education. For example, they may be incredibly clever and talented, but they just don't have access to those opportunities that they deserve.

And I do believe that those kinds of. Differences and, uh, uh, gel and cheese can also be partly at least with clearers. And of course the more general.

Great, fantastic. I know you have to go catch an airplane, so it's wanted to say thank you for the time. This was incredibly enlightening. Interesting and exciting.

All right. Have a nice day.